Superior Veg*ns?
Ok, I was prompted to post this after reading the "why are you veg*n" post, but didn't think it was totally related to that because it is more of a rant than anything.
My aunt is in PETA and says she's a vegetarian, (although I've seen her sneak meat on various occasions when she didn't think anyone was watching, and she tries to justify it when she gets caught) and eats cheese like it's goin out of style. Anyway, yesterday we were at a family wedding and she started getting all buddy-buddy with me b/c she knows I'm veggie, and started going off on one of her PETA tirades to everyone at the table (sorry to offend anyone in PETA). So, when she brought me into the conversation, I simply stated that I understand her concern for animal cruelty and share those concerns, but my main reason for going veg is the environment. The rest of the table was baffled (in a curious way), so I had the opportunity to explain how the meat industry is detrimental to the environment. They were all very intrigued and eager to listen. Then I said, "this is just my thing, you know. I try to make people aware and then leave them to their own choices. I'm not trying to convert anyone." So my aunt says that she totally doesn't agree with me. That I should be veg*n for the animals and that she DOES try to convert people, and I should tell everyone about cruelty when I see them eating meat. (Do you all remember reading that I have caught her eating meat??? And she totally chowed down on the cheese laden eggplant parm at the wedding!!!! :o :o) My response was simple (as she is crazy nuts and refuses to acknowledge anyone else's opinion). I just said, "I believe everyone has a right to choose how to live their lives. If they become more aware because of something I told them, then that's great. But, I'm not going to push my beliefs on anyone, and I will not say that cruelty is my main concern when it isn't." I said this as I was standing to excuse myself. She made a face and I left.
Ugh. It pisses me off that she is out in the world "representing" veg*ns in that way. I just can't buy into the idea that being veg*n for cruelty reasons is "superior" to being veg*n for enviro reasons. AND SHE'S NOT EVEN VEGAN!!!! How can she go off on me when she still eats dairy???? (I'm not vegan either btw, but STILL!!!) Ugh. I can't wait for Thanksgiving...... ::)
p.s. I totally apologize for the poor grammar of this post.
I understand how you feel. I react the same way when anyone pretends to be morally superior to others because they are what they are or do what they do. Or don't. If you have something you think is better, surely it should be your mission to *help* others find that good thing, not condemn them for what they don't know? Whether it be veg*nism, philosophy, religion or anything else.
"There but for the grace of God go I." You know? It's only because we have learned that we don't do whatever it is or DO whatever it is. We've had a chance to learn.
i agree, that IS awful and it is sad that she is representing veg*ns that way. it is both giving them/us that 'crazy' stereotype and letting people think that vegetarians still eat meat sometimes ::).
Sorry that has been something you've had to deal with, Lotus, but it seems as if you're dealing with it in a relatively calm, cool, collected way as opposed to the undebatable crazed way your aunt appears to deal with it.
All I can think of is Lacey from Rock of Love when I read this post.
This kind of reminds me of the men in congress who are vocally anti-gay and then get caught having sex with other men. I think she's so obnoxious because she eats meat and in her twisted mind she compensates be being overly aggressive re: PETA.
Sucks to your assmar if you have to sit next to her at a table, tho'. Leaving was you best choice. The conversation couldn't have gone anywhere AND because of what you said the others at the table might have kept an open mind. Being dictated to is the easiest way to turn me off to any message.
Not to rant on PETA, but of the vegetarians I know, the biggest PETA supporters are the most obnoxious. I'm not sure if PETA promotes obnoxiousness or obnoxious people are attracted to PETA. Their message doesn't bother me, but supporter tactics annoy the heck out of me.
Besides Lacey, I also thought of this:
Reaction Formation: A defense mechanism where an individual acts in a manner opposite from his or her unconscious beliefs. A homosexual who joined a gay hate group would be an example of reaction formation. Freud believed that defense mechanisms helped us cope with the world around us by letting us repress our deepest unconscious fears.
Taken from: http://www.alleydog.com/glossary/definition.cfm?term=Reaction%20Formation
I don't know why I think of these things... guess I'm just a psychologist at heart; looking to explain why people do the things they do. ???
Thanks for listening everyone. Luckily, I didn't actually have to sit with her during the meal. This was after, when we were all "mingling." I will say though, I totally agree with H_H about turning people off with obnoxious tactics. I try to avoid this, and think I do a pretty good job. My family is pretty good about accomodating me as far as food goes, without making me think it's a burden. They pretty much respect my choice always seem willing to listen to what I say, even if they don't agree. However, they all make fun of my aunt and cringe in waiting for her to tell them that the bird they are eating had it's beak burned off before it was mercilessly slaughtered. While I do think it's important for people to be aware that this happens, I don't feel I should tell them that as they are eating Thanksgiving dinner, you know?
Everyone has a crazy streak in their family, right?
Again, thanks for listening. 8)
Whew. I can completely relate to a lot of this, but I'm extremely lucky I don't have an aunt who is hypocritical in her beliefs, while trying to convert people.
I was out to lunch with my dad today, and we went to this wonderful Indian restaurant. A couple was sitting up front, and I could overhear the woman asking in a really snippy tone if there was anything on the menu that didn't have milk or cream in it. Finally settling for the tofu with that on it. Her attitude and impatience with the waiter, who was extremely kind and accommodating, drove me nuts. Especially because he wasn't a native english speaker. She didn't even bother to use the word dairy or vegan, even though he replied that they had a number of vegan items on the menu.
The other thing that irked me was that there were pretty detailed descriptions of each item on the menu; it's pretty straightforward what's vegan and what isn't. AND you can mix and match. The menu was laid out with different sauces that you could get with veggies, tofu, or different types of meat. Not exactly rocket science.
the biggest PETA supporters are the most obnoxious. I'm not sure if PETA promotes obnoxiousness or obnoxious people are attracted to PETA. Their message doesn't bother me, but supporter tactics annoy the heck out of me.
Just wanted to say that I'm a loyal PETA supporter (both financially and through various campaigns). No one does more for animal rights. Period. I'm a strict vegan, but I don't berate or look down upon vegetarians or even omnis trying to reduce their meat consumption.
Well, you're totally cool. I guess it's just the subset I know.
I just said, "I believe everyone has a right to choose how to live their lives."
I have to admit, i've never understood this reasoning as applied to veg*nism. Surely you don't believe people have the right to choose to, for example, kill and eat other humans? That is a terrible moral error, and people should be prevented from doing it. They don't have the right. We shouldn't respect their right to do so, because they have no such right. We should stop them, however we can.
Animals may not be as morally valuable as humans, but if they have any rights whatsoever, then they must have the right not to be tortured and killed for trivial pleasure, since that is such a basic right. (If they didn't have that right, what sort of rights WOULD they have?) But if animals have that right, that means we do not have the right to torture/kill them for pleasure. So as with killing and eating humans, we simply do not have the right to kill and eat animals. We shouldn't respect people's right to kill and eat animals for trivial culinary pleasure, because they have no such right.
Now, maybe we should act respectful because that's the best way to make veg*nism accessible and attractive. But if so, let's not lose sight of what we're doing; we would not, in that case, actually be believing that people have a right to do this to animals. We would just be pretending, because that's the best way to get them to stop.
In the end, I just don't understand the idea of respecting someone's right to imprison, torture and kill innocent beings. What happened to respect for the innocent beings getting tortured and killed? Don't they deserve a little respect? Or should we "respect" humans so much that we'll let them do ANYTHING they want to animals? We should respect all beings, certainly, but respecting a person does not mean that we should let him or her commit moral atrocities. And if I respect my friend, that doesn't mean I let him beat my dog, since I also respect my dog.
Again, I think that approaching omnis with an attitude of being "respectful of choices" and avoiding "preachiness" is at least sometimes a good tactic to keep from scaring people off from veg*nism. But that's a question of how best to stop their cruelty; it's not a question of what's true or right. Our aim should be to stop them, however we can; there I agree with your aunt. Maybe sweet words work best; fine, let's use sweet words. But not because their choices deserve respect. The choice to torture and kill innocent creatures for trivial purposes does not deserve respect.
I've been vegan for 15+ years, and my sole reason for being vegan is my love for all animals. (I realize that people are vegan for other reasons like health and environment, but those are definitely secondary to animal rights for me.) I feel that PETA does a lot of great work, and it saddens me to see them getting a bad rap on this forum. There are bad seeds in every group, no more in PETA than anywhere else in society. I feel that PETA on the whole is a wonderful organization dedicated to saving animals' lives. I tend to agree more along the lines with what Cephi posted. If people see that way of thinking as too militant, so be it. I don't go out of my way to berate strangers for their eating habits, nor do I constantly call out friends and family members. However, my close friends and family members know my feelings on the subject, and I do make comments to them accordingly at times. I realize that espousing your beliefs in a friendly, pleasant manner has its place. Frankly, however, it sickens me that soooooo many animals are tortured and killed on a daily basis. Sometimes, I can't help but get a little obnoxious at times when discussions arise. How many animals have to die?? Don't animals (besides humans, let's not forget we're animals just the same) have the right to choose how to live their lives??? I feel that when innocent lives are at stake, we can't always afford to be nice and accepting of others. Sometimes, bolder moves and statements are necessary. So, there's my two cents ...
There are always going to be hypocritical people in every organization, establishment, or subculture. Of course, not all PETA people are like your aunt. But PETA definitely promotes and even revels in extreme views, even though some of their campaigns are NOT extreme at all (take some of the animal reforms they fight for; for example they could be fighting against every single instance of animal killing in factory farms rather than trying to just promote "better standards" in slaughterhouse practices--a compromise that I don't find extreme or worthy at all--but that's just me).
Aside from this, for some reason, I do feel compelled to say one thing. When it comes to true vegans who DO completely abstain from all animal products without cheating, I sort of sometimes feel people do not understand where we're coming from. The old analogy of slavery comes to mind. How would you feel if someone told you, knowing what you do today, that slavery is okay, even just a little bit. Of course, you would be horrified to hear such a thing. Well, many vegans feel exactly this way about animals, so it's difficult for us to see compromise as "okay." It's like saying, well we don't kill the slaves, we just use them to pick cotton in our fields (or something to that effect). Somewhere along the lines, there's a switch in our (strict vegans') heads where it's terribly difficult for us to see it as okay to consume any animal products at all. I believe there's definitely a point of crossover, and how and when that happens is different for each vegan. I'm not speaking for every vegan, just the more strict (perhaps even "angry") ones.
Just read your post Cephi after writing this. Yes, the ultimate goal is to persuade people to our side. Sweet words are not needed. Though derision and accusation is also not the way to go. I think just plain matter-of-fact truth may be best. With a bit of compassion for all creatures, including humans.
i ahve to admit i sometimes act superior about my vegan-nes. i was at the home of a friend the other night with a bunch of other people i didn't know, said friend is vegetartian, and the one other person that i knew outed me as a vegan. now, i tend not to bring the issue into discussion unless asked about it, especially in this case, when no food was involved. but this woman, who had never met me before, automatically responds to "frances is vegan", with "oh, i'm sorry". >:( effing infuriating. i try not to be a bitch, but it comes out: "not as sorry as i am for you". and this woman is totally taken aback thet i would speak to her so. sometimes i want to scream. sometimes people treat me like a freak, and i feel that i operate on a higher level of ethics than they gdo, and i get pretentious and assish over it.
but lotus, your aunt is a beeyotch and you should call her out on it. peta can be ok sometimes (mdvegan you are rad and i wish all peta supporters were as rad), but there is always going to be inconsistency among members of an organization that big.
Again, thanks for all the comments. It is so great to hear what everyone has to say. Cephi, I totally see your point. I don't think people should kill animals for food, but it's just not in my personality to tell them what to do. I feel like I'm promoting veg*nism by explaining my reasons and showing them by the way I live my life. I can't tell someone else what to do. I will give them every reason in the world not to eat meat for as long as they will listen, but I can't be rude or forceful. I just have to hope that my actions and information gets through to people.
Oh, and I may be a little more supportive of my aunt's methods if she actually practiced them herself....
SB & cephi - You figured it out for me.
I think 50% of my problem with the people I know is that they're vegetarians and are forever telling off meat eaters. For them, killing an animal is bad, but having a cow suffer all her life so they can eat cheese pizza is okay. Even when I was an omni I didn't get that.
I don't get the superiority thing at all. Do I think I'm more superior? No.
I do, however, think people are living unethically if they live in a way that is ecologically disastrous. Factory farms and feedlots ... those are huge ecological disasters. When people eat meat from that, I think it's unethical in terms of a philosophy that sustains life to eat from such places.
Now, I went vegan for health and ecological reasons. The no harming animals is a bonus for me. I also don't have a problem with people eating meat. All life thrives off of other life. Even a vegan one. However, when I say I don't have a problem with it ... I mean, I don't have a problem with people eating meat from small, local, organic, sustainable farms (which, by default, are also humane). Like my S/O does. Like my cat does, lol.
Otherwise, I do have a problem with it in the ecological and life sustaining sense. However, since I am a recluse, and would rather not hang out with other people outside of my S/O ... no one will ever hear lectures from me, lol.
I have met quite a few vegans like your aunt, though. Who are vegan, but somehow I always catch them giving lectures and chowing down on cheese. Or fish. Not sure how they reconcile that.
I have been a vegetarian for most of my life (I'm a grandma). Many in my family eat fish and meat. I have never said a word to them about it. They know my feelings as I have made them clear as they pertain to me, since I was a teenager. I understand people who are passionate about their causes and way of life; however, it's never a good thing to be confrontational with people about what they eat. It's presumptuous and doesn't really sway people in your direction. I will say that since being on this site (vegweb) I have found myself leaning toward being vegan. I came onto this website to find things to make my children and grandchildren when they come home for the holidays and I have stayed. This is because most of you are intelligent and present a good reason for being vegan. You have convinced me without getting in my face about it. I appreciate that. I have seen vegetarians get in irrational about the food being served as if people should cater to them. I wouldn't dream of doing that. If I want a good vegetarian dish, I go to a restaurant I know serves it; not one that's a steak house. If someone harasses me about being a vegetarian, I just tell them this is how I prefer to live and give them my reasons. What they do with that information is up to them. You know, there are always people who say, "I love cows - between two pieces of bread" and crap like that. These people are only trying to goad you into an argument. I hear it all the time. Instead, I try to take it differently. When I make something really good, I bring it to work. My husband was a rabid meateater when we met and now, he never eats meat even when he's away from home.
Lotus, what an annoying aunt!
I want to say that I don't feel superior, but to be honest, my husband and I do tend to raise our eyebrows at lot of Vegetarians. More than omnis, who we just feel sorry for. Especially the "I'm a Vegetarian, I only eat grilled cheese" variety. Unlike omnis who are just in the dark entirely, Vegetarians have made a choice, probably researched their diet... but they did it half-a$$ed, IMO.
(Actually, some people probably would say the same about me on the vegan lifestyle spectrum!)
We know quite a few "vegetarians" who don't actually eat vegetables! It just baffles us.
No, not all vegetarians are this grilled cheese kind, especially not those who are on vegweb! Just the ones we tend to meet.
There is a spectrum of veggie-ness and yes, I understand you have to take a step down the path not just jump in the lake.
But it is frustrating when someone has been confronted with the information and chooses to ignore half of it. It's worse than someone who just has no clue (most omnis).
I guess we don't feel morally superior, but we do tend to pat ourselves on the back and feel proud that we've done our homework. *sigh* I guess that is a feeling of superiority... *sigh* We still learn new things everyday but lately most of those tend to reinforce our thinking. You can't think you're right without feeling at least somewhat superior, right? ???
Go ahead, tell I'm a mean vegan. ;)
I have been a vegetarian for most of my life (I'm a grandma). Many in my family eat fish and meat. I have never said a word to them about it. They know my feelings as I have made them clear as they pertain to me, since I was a teenager. I understand people who are passionate about their causes and way of life; however, it's never a good thing to be confrontational with people about what they eat. It's presumptuous and doesn't really sway people in your direction. I will say that since being on this site (vegweb) I have found myself leaning toward being vegan. I came onto this website to find things to make my children and grandchildren when they come home for the holidays and I have stayed. This is because most of you are intelligent and present a good reason for being vegan. You have convinced me without getting in my face about it. I appreciate that. I have seen vegetarians get in irrational about the food being served as if people should cater to them. I wouldn't dream of doing that. If I want a good vegetarian dish, I go to a restaurant I know serves it; not one that's a steak house. If someone harasses me about being a vegetarian, I just tell them this is how I prefer to live and give them my reasons. What they do with that information is up to them. You know, there are always people who say, "I love cows - between two pieces of bread" and crap like that. These people are only trying to goad you into an argument. I hear it all the time. Instead, I try to take it differently. When I make something really good, I bring it to work. My husband was a rabid meateater when we met and now, he never eats meat even when he's away from home.
Yes, very well said. I think our viewpoints are similar. Antagonising others just makes them feel justified in hassling us.
A few friends of mine have said to me, "Wow, way to have the least practical, most expensive and most pretentious diet ever!!"
I very calmly explained the facts of veganism to them, pointing out the reasons why (health and environmental, was more or less lactose intolerante anyway) and told them what I'd eat in a typical day and broke down the costs. Omg. Fresh produce and rice and beans are SOOOO expensive. :D
I think a lot of people expect vegetarians and especially vegans to be horribly pretentious jerks. I hate that there are people who really play into the stereotypes, too. I feel as though you can almost tell the people who JUST saw a documentary on the meat and/or dairy industry and converted to veganism like a week ago. They are by far the most obnoxious. I ran into a girl in some other set of forums and she was filling out a survey and her answers were things like "Um, having drippy bloody rotting flesh of dead animals and COW JUICE?!!!!??!?!" Everyone reading the boards agreed that she gave a really bad name to vegans, and she had only recently converted. *eyeroll* I know when I started I was more trying to figure the whole darn thing out, seeing how I could get nutrients into my diet...not, you know, giving the rest of us a really bad name.
The way I see it? Being a total pretentious jerk is a waste of breath.
lapetitepoire - I can't believe the person who said that to you would think our diets are more expensive than hers. I mean, what's a pound of tofu go for these days - $3.00 or something? And TVP, yep - very expensive. I just paid $1.75 for a pound that I won't even use up in a month. And compared with steak or ground beef or chicken, I think it's pretty inexpensive. I can't remember where I read this, but someone said (speaking of meat I believe), "if you really believe that that's really good food, then you need to live near a really good hospital." It was probably in vegetarian times or something.
I think people who are vegetarians or become vegan or whatever, are trying but sometimes don't know where to go for resources, so they resort to things like potato chips, grilled cheese, and nachos. They're trying, but just haven't taken the time out to really know what it's about. It isn't a diet. It's a lifestyle. You are trying to leave the tiniest footprint on the earth that you possibly can.
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