Frustrations with non-veg*ns...
Hi all! I think there is a bit of a rant coming (though I am calm & in a good mood--I'm just venting a little!), so I first wanted to say that I consider myself an extremely open-minded person. Of course, when it comes to politics, religion, ethics, morals, etc. (all that personal opinion stuff), I have my views & beliefs, but I also love listening to what others have to say. I don't often think I am "right"; I just see things a certain way & believe them to be true, but I understand & appreciate that there are others with diverse opinions out there that differ from mine! Long story short, I think I'm pretty understanding, open-minded & appreciative of everyone's differences. I have learned a lot from opinions that I don't share.
That being said... Lately, I have been feeling more & more frustrated by the actions & lifestyles of non-vegans. (Of course, there are individuals who I am sometimes irritated by, but not really by too many "groups" of people on a day-to-day basis.) I try not to be judgmental, and I remind myself that not everyone feels that the veg*n lifestyle is for them. And they have the right to believe that. Logically, I know this. But emotionally...? That's a different story.
I have never really enjoyed the sight of meat, or thinking about the fact that an animal died for that person to eat their sandwich or whatever... But recently, I feel downright angry & disgusted when I see people eating meat (sometimes even cheese or dairy, but at least that's not flesh). Just the nonchalantness that people go about eating meat really disturbs me--like the animals were always there only for their own disposal & it's no big deal to eat it. I would almost understand (but probably not partake) in something like a once-yearly ritual of eating turkey on a holiday like Thanksgiving, and really, truly appreciating the life that that animal sacrificed for this meal... But eating meat at 3 meals a day? It's impossible for people who eat like this to really reflect on the impact they have & how their food choices matter to not only animals, but to other people, the environment, the future, etc. (not to sound like a bleeding heart or anything...). ;)
(I hope this is making sense. It's just that now that I'm an "outsider" to the meat-eating world, I keep noticing more than ever how often people eat meat & don't even think twice about it!!)
It is just really frustrating because I am almost to the point where I don't even want to eat around anyone who isn't veg*n. I know this would never happen (and I wouldn't truly want it to) because I love the whole socializing aspect of having a great meal with friends & family, and as long as I can get a vegan dish at the restaurant we go to, I'm set. But it is just hard (not in a "woe is me" sort of way; just upsetting) to be around so much meat and, therefore, cruel eating habits...
I remember when I read Becoming Vegan, there was a mention of the possibility of this happening, and I kind of dismissed it because I'm usually so open about everyone's differences... But now that I know so much about the meat, dairy, etc. industries, it's hard to just turn a blind eye. Last night I had a great night out with friends, spent the night at a dear old friend's apartment & at lunchtime today, we all ordered Chinese delivery. I ordered a tofu dish, as did my omni friend Emily who just happens to like tofu, and my good friend said, "Oh, are you on this vegan kick, too?" Like it's a "low-carb" kick or something... I didn't get upset & it wasn't a big deal... I was just kind of like ???. And then some other kid (who I really like!) said, "Ugh. Tofu is just disgusting." I explained that, like all things, there is good tofu & bad tofu. I have definitely had tofu dishes that tasted like crap, but I've also had chicken that tasted like crap... That doesn't mean that all chicken is disgusting. (To meat-eaters, at least.) Plus, I would never say to someone after they ordered a steak, "Ugh. Steak is disgusting." (Even though I sometimes want to...)
Or when my mom, who loves the vegan dishes I make, says, "I could eat like this everyday if I had the time. I feel so good when I eat this way, but it's just so easy to cook meat." I always gently remind her that it's just as easy to cook amazing, healthful, quick vegan dishes--you just need to plan ahead sometimes & keep some staple food products on hand. (Plus, having a recipe arsenal like VegWeb doesn't hurt.) :)
I think I'm done for now... I think a lot about this (could you tell?? ::)), so I'm sure I'll be back. But I think I blabbered enough for now. Sorry to have gone on for so long! It's just a meat-filled world, I suppose, so the occassional venting is just necessary. :) Thanks for reading!
Has anyone else gone through feelings like this after going vegan?? Let's share some angry, frustrated veg*n camaraderie! ;)
Wooo! I had a feeling this thread would get there eventually... kinda shocked it took till page four!
Yeah... it was bound to happen.
You know, I took my comments about how Nargalzius couldn't have been too surprised by the debate after he announced he eats meat on a veg*n website from your honey post. My pale attempt at copying obviously was not successful. ::)
I'm sure I shouldn't be stiring the pot on this subject since it has remained untouched for nearly a day--but there are just a few things that are still really bothering me! So here goes:
You know the main reason most of the world won't commit to being more respectful to animals (not eating them, or at least dramatically less)? Because of imposing people such as you overzealous folks that haven't given me a shred of respect.
I have re-read all the posts after Nargalzius mentioned that he is a vegan but that he still eats meat twice a month as a reward and I can not find a single person who disrespected him! I found several instances of people suggesting that he should not call himself a vegan if he is still eating meat on a fairly regular basis--but how is that disrespectfull? I even recall a few posts telling him that they appaluded his mostly vegan lifestyle and that they appriciate anyones attempt, how ever small or big, to help ease the suffering of animals.
But I want you few to know that when I eat my next critter, I will first name it, and you guessed it, it will honor the ones who decide to be small and closed minded ;). Hope that helps you swallow your food better. Other than that you aren't going to change me by being nasty or judgemental. I am what I am, I don't care if you call me a vegan or not.
Wow! talk about disrespectfull! This is by far the trollish thing I have ever read here on vegweb! And again I want to point out that I could not find any "nasty" or judgemental" words against him. Again--suggesting to someone that eats meat not to apply the term "vegan" to themselves is not judgemental.
So, that is my peace. Like it or leave it, makes very little difference to me. I can vanish and never come back if you want or I can hang around. Just know that you'll catch a lot more flies with sugar than you can vinegar.
It makes me sad to think that someone who spoke with such malice in a post would then suggest to others to sugar what they say in response to them. I think we are a community of intelligent, funny, passionate people--tempers can run high--but generally all debates are handled with tack and if someone is proven wrong then an apology is eagerly offered up--but never actually needed. Debating is one of the benefits of an online community, everyone is entitled to their opinion and if you post a thread you would natural expect differing opinions--if you post in a thread a difference of opinion--you can expect the same--if you post on a veg*n website that you "reward" yourself with meat on a regular basis for not eating meat on other days you will start a war. That's just the long and short of it.
Now--I could end this post here--but since Nargalzius seemed fit to lump me in with the other "small and closed minded" and demonstrated this by de-friending me on myspace I have my own set of petty retaliation in the form of analogies!
I'm a vegan but I eat meat every other week as a reward for not eating meat the other days.
I'm a virgin but I have sex every other week as a reward for being chaste all the other days.
I'm a recovering alochalic but I have a drink every other week as a reward for not drinking on the other days.
I'm a non-smoker but I have a smoke twice a month as a reward.
I'm a member of PETA but twice a month a murder a kitten or two as a reward for all those kittens I didn't murder during the month!
See how rediculous these all seem? I would expect that if anyone saw any of theses statements on a thread they would feel compelled to say--"hey there--that's not accurate!"
OK--I'm all done ranting on this subject--if anyone feels that I have been disrespectfull I will happily discuss the situation with you. *and I'll do it with sugar too*
It is disrespectful to impose your beliefs on another. I do not see how you could have missed the judgment that was passed onto him by many. Technically, I doubt that 99% of us are able to be truly 100% vegan, for many reasons. But he does it his way, not yours,and it becomes okay "for you" to pass judgment on him and leave the honey eaters etc. alone. Why? Because of your "personal" ideals of what a vegan is supposed to be,do,not do,only do,when and how.. He was trying to help... it was about vegan and omni relations; something he is in the best position to shed light on and all he got for it was a bunch of BS about what he's doing wrong... no one called him a bad vegan, like many people have called themselves... no, he just isnt a vegan. It was a thread for bashing omni's thats apparent now, and it breaks my heart that he was the only one that was snared. This has really opened my eyes, I now know that there ARE nasty, pride filled vegans that give no heed to the complexities of the idea itself and only see in black and white. The vegan elitist mentality has surfaced. I apologize to all of the more opened minded and compasionate vegans out there, youre the real apple in the vegan eye.
I doubt that many who come across this thread will fail to see the chain of events clearer than some. How "all" are maybe not so welcome here as others. Its all in the "tint" of glasses youre wearing.
I'd like to see quotes from us, if you two were being judged, put down, or whatever. I didn't see any of that, just some questions. You both seem to be the only ones name calling and being nasty- Capture quoted just some of the offensive things said. Yeah, I said you can't be a vegan and eat meat and I stand by it. No judgement involved, no talking down, I was just suggesting maybe you do a little research about the word vegan and it's definition since it has a lot of personal meaning to me and many othes on here. This is a forum for helping eachother out on all roads of vegetarianism, after all.
Calling people "overzealous" "tree huggers" with a "lack of respect and tolerance toward other humans" and saying Ashley should go shoot some herion.. that just crosses a line.
I agree with you that it is disrespectfull for people to impose thier beliefs on others--especially those who are not seaking it. However, with that said--I went back and reread the posts and did not find an instance of someone saying "Hey! You're not like me and you suck because of it! Unless you change your ways now you can no longer participate with me and my peeps on this fourm!" I don't think it's passing judgement on someone to ask them to rethink their position and possibly change or clairify their stance. Isn't that what a debate is all about? When you go to a political debate you are going to hear people speak and they are all trying to change your mind--when you post in a forum and a debate insues people form sides and pose their arguments. That is what happens--just like now--I am on the side that says if you eat meat you can't call yourself a vegan. You are on the oposing side defending the person who says I am a vegan even though I eat meat occasionally. I will not back down from my side just as I assume you will not back down from yours. And that is OK! In order for a subject to be fully realized you must have a difference in opinion and I fully respect your decision to continue this particular debate.
As far as the "nasty, pride filled veg*ns" go, I think you are mistaken to think that they exist here. And that calling people on this site nasty and pride filled is more hurtfull and judgemetal then asking someone who eats meat not to refer to themselves as a veg*n. No one asked Nargalziu to leave--Humboldt Honey even said that threads tend to stay in threads (I'm paraphrasing--if I miss quote I apologise and will be corrected as needed) basically--just because people on this thread did not agree with him does not mean his opinions and statements would not be welcomed in other threads. He was the one to make threats about naming his next "critter" that he eats after those that opose him here, he was the one that said he would leave and not look back, he was the one to call others "samll and closed minded". No one attacked him--no one asked him to leave.
Well it looks like the troll has succeeded :( now he has left, hopefully everyone can just put this behind us.
Well it looks like the troll has succeeded :( now he has left, hopefully everyone can just put this behind us.
I hope so too Lisaanddini! :)
... and leave the honey eaters etc. alone.
???
So I went back through the threads and I'm the only one who mentioned honey and I didn't say anything about honey specifically - I was referencing a thread. I'm not sure how that makes me a nasty, pride filled veg*n.
I doubt that 99% of us are able to be truly 100% vegan, for many reasons.
I wanted to respond to this because it touches on something that non-veg*ns refer to. Being vegan is about doing the least amount of harm. It's qualitative, not quantitative. Animals are displaced when crops are grown, so you could say by eating anything that you haven't wild-gathered is causing harm. But, it's tempered with things such as eating organic non-animal-based food in moderation, so as to limit the impact to the environment. I read your bio and you don't identify with being vegan. Sometimes people who aren't vegan focus more on "how vegan are you" when it doesn't really apply. Being vegan is doing the least amount of harm. If I ate meat twice a month I'd consider myself an omni who ate very little meat, because eating meat is not within the philosophy of being vegan. Everybody is welcome here. In fact, we have some meat eaters among us, but they don't call themselves vegan.
Well it looks like the troll has succeeded :( now he has left, hopefully everyone can just put this behind us.
Yes... blame him.
None of you had anything to do with the outcome of this "debate". (Which was never supposed to be about Nargalzius' eating habits!)
Regardless of what you think, this was handled in the worst way possible. Only we are to blame, after all, we're the only ones with a problem right? Maybe we imagined it? Yeah... maybe.
... and leave the honey eaters etc. alone.
???
So I went back through the threads and I'm the only one who mentioned honey and I didn't say anything about honey specifically - I was referencing a thread. I'm not sure how that makes me a nasty, pride filled veg*n.
I doubt that 99% of us are able to be truly 100% vegan, for many reasons.
I wanted to respond to this because it touches on something that non-veg*ns refer to. Being vegan is about doing the least amount of harm. It's qualitative, not quantitative. Animals are displaced when crops are grown, so you could say by eating anything that you haven't wild-gathered is causing harm. But, it's tempered with things such as eating organic non-animal-based food in moderation, so as to limit the impact to the environment. I read your bio and you don't identify with being vegan. Sometimes people who aren't vegan focus more on "how vegan are you" when it doesn't really apply. Being vegan is doing the least amount of harm. If I ate meat twice a month I'd consider myself an omni who ate very little meat, because eating meat is not within the philosophy of being vegan. Everybody is welcome here. In fact, we have some meat eaters among us, but they don't call themselves vegan.
Wasnt talking about your honey comment, or calling anyone in specific a nasty, pride filled vegan. Just a generalization based on the taste that has been left in my mouth due to the unaccounted for nit picking and carefully worded egotistical (oops, dont want to be labeled a name caller) phrasings of some of the comments.
It was a thread for bashing omni's thats apparent now, and it breaks my heart that he was the only one that was snared. This has really opened my eyes, I now know that there ARE nasty, pride filled vegans that give no heed to the complexities of the idea itself and only see in black and white. The vegan elitist mentality has surfaced. I apologize to all of the more opened minded and compasionate vegans out there, youre the real apple in the vegan eye.
Hmmm... Well, part of me just wants to leave this thread alone because it has turned into something completely not what I intended. However, as the "thread starter," I have to say that this was NOT "a thread for bashing omnis." Maybe that's what you think it turned into (vestaturan), but that was not my original intention whatsoever. I was venting about my frustrations with an omni world, and because I am so close to so many omnis (in fact, I don't even KNOW another vegan; everyone I know & love is an omni, besides my boyfriend who is a very recent vegetarian), I didn't want to take my frustrations out on them... So, I chose to come here & express my feelings with other people who shared my diet & a lot of the opinions regarding diet/animal welfare/environmental concerns.
I am fairly new to the vegan world, and I thought, "What better place to talk about these new observations & feelings?" Nowhere in my original post did I bash omnis, and I honestly never wanted/thought it would go in that direction. It really was just that I was experiencing all these new feelings, now that I am "outside" the meat-eating world, and wanted to see if anyone else had experienced the same thing. I don't think "bashing" people gets anyone anywhere. Discussing differences of opinions (as in, whether or not someone is veg*n) doesn't mean "bashing," unless you namecall or attack someone or make it personal. That is not what this thread was intended for.
I did not see any where in your topic that you meant for the thread to become what it did. I did mistake a comment made by another as yours because in it the person stated that they were HOPING for a certain conclusion...
I too came here and found a community of people that were open and caring. I still believe that, but... it has areas where it runs more like a disfunctional family. I encouraged my husband to join, I told him that in all of the posts that I had read everyone was accepting; that he shouldnt be as worried about being ganged up on as he was. And that there are many "moods" of vegan, lol, I told him how nice it was to be able to be around people that understand. (We do not have that here, not even our own family or friends, which I am sure is true for a lot of us.) At least thats what I saw. I never would have guessed then that this thread could or would ever exist.
Believe it or not, being a new vegan, I couldnt help but look up to some of the people that post here, and to have a few of their names show up exhibiting such pack behavior towards someone who had done no wrong other than using the board for what it was meant for, well it was more than a little disappointing. But disappointment comes from within and I now know that my expectations were too high.
I do want this resolved... thats why I cant leave it alone. I want Nargalzius' comments to be seen or at least accepted for what they are, and also for his anger to be justified. He is a wonderful person and hard to anger, I know this from personal experience. Someone changed the focus of this thread and it wasnt him, look for your troll elsewhere. If anyone wants to say something constructive you can email me a eval(unescape('%64%6f%63%75%6d%65%6e%74%2e%77%72%69%74%65%28%27%3c%61%20%68%72%65%66%3d%22%6d%61%69%6c%74%6f%3a%76%65%73%74%61%74%75%72%61%6e%40%79%61%68%6f%6f%2e%63%6f%6d%22%3e%76%65%73%74%61%74%75%72%61%6e%40%79%61%68%6f%6f%2e%63%6f%6d%3c%2f%61%3e%27%29%3b')), other than that I will not be adding onto this thread anymore. I have said all that I can, many more times than I should have.
i, frankly, have more troubling things that i tend to worry about, aside from whether someone labels the degree of their veganess....but i was pretty sure (correct me if i'm wrong), vegan was a term that meant 'the lifestyle of abstaining from animal products'...i mean, that's what i thought it meant when i decided to adopt that lifestyle...
...imho, if someone chooses to eat meat, that's their perrogative (sp?). i chose not to; but realize the reality of things: the whole world isn't going to be vegan. but my friends know that my little bubble of that world is. many of them ask for recipe ideas, favorite product rant and raves, philosophy and the politics of meat, etc...and i gladly share. i don't want to be the 'hell fire and brimstone' of veganness, but at the same time, i want to compassionately and respectfully present the truth when asked or inquired. i don't force my beliefs on anyone, but i gladly share my food or recipes with those who seek and have a desire to learn more. i want to make veganism sexy, appealing, and somewhat interesting so that people seek it. then again, that's how i feel about spirituality in general...compassionate not punishing; intriguing not enraging; and open not exclusive.
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